Of our communities. And it’s it’s it’s a rush. Now, Skinwalker Ranch is is quite a a departure. You could call Skinwalker Ranch, I think, the the most uh uh strange real estate play of all time.
And you know, you’ll probably remember, George, it was it was just uh 2 years ago that I went public with uh with the fact that I had acquired the ranch from you know, elusive aerospace billionaire Robert Bigelow. You know, up until 2 years ago, I’d kept my identity confidential and had no intention of ever revealing that I was the owner of the ranch. Uh I did I didn’t want it to to um in any way undermine my professional activities and my business interests, but you know, was ultimately persuaded to to come forward and go public. And here we are. What a ride. And and I think we’re just getting warmed up and witnessing history. I mean, the the things that are be going to be talked about tonight on your show, I I believe are of historic importance. And I think people will reflect back on these times decades from now as as really a tipping point in in world history and and really you know, the the topics that uh that are now making headline news and being recognized as as legitimate.
>> I know, what when you started, it wasn’t that way. I mean, it was still pretty weird. And as I said, you travel in in the upper crust of Utah’s business community. And that and it’s also Utah’s a very conservative state politically.
Uh religious influence is throughout um both business life and social life. I know from talking to Harry Reid, who was a LDS member, that uh you know, some people in the church kind of looked at
him uh cross-eyed uh sort of when that was revealed that he was involved in this.
Um it had to be of concern to you when you bought the property. Boy, if this gets out, I could be in I could be in trouble.
>> Uh, yeah, I I was quite nervous, to be honest. I I uh, you know, especially as as someone who had had never seen a UFO, a ghost, an orb, or anything of the sort. I I acquired the property as a healthy skeptic, as you know, and and you know, buying the the most scientifically studied paranormal hotspot on the planet that that was the [clears throat] source of so much controversy. Yeah, everything from cattle mutilations to to UFO phenomena, you know, it it it was it was a bit of a departure from from my day-to-day responsibilities, and it was with heavy heart that I that I, you know, kind of proceeded, but I felt like if there was even a a 5% chance that that uh, there was some truth or reality to the claims, this could very well shape up to be the greatest science project of our time, and yeah, well, we’ll let the public decide as as this unfolds. It’s it’s uh, it’s quite a quite a project.
>> How long did you have the property before it became clear or something really was going on? As you said, you went into it thinking as a skeptic. Uh, you were looking for prosaic explanations for what was going on there. I and at some point you realized, uh-oh, this is real. What was the event?
Can you describe it in detail?
>> Yeah, you bet. Yeah, it’s it was funny.
You know, right off the bat, within days of acquiring the property, I installed my own security, my own personnel, as Bigelow security was escorted off the property, and we really opened a new chapter and a a new investigation to dive into it. Um, yeah, I I truly believe that there was most likely a a 95% chance that there was a natural prosaic explanation for all that had been reported for years and and, you know, the first glimpses at the fact that there was something something potentially unusual going on really came from uh, one of my security uh, who was who was actually running drone surveys of the property on a on a daily basis who uh, who ended up capturing both video and still images in broad daylight uh, of what what could only be described as, you know, true unidentified flying objects, UFO craft. I uh, I I was still not convinced that uh, that there was something extraordinary going on even with him um, bringing those those photos and and all of the metadata straight to my office for uh, for analysis. I I still remained somewhat skeptical until about 6 months into my ownership of the property uh, one day when we were hosting dignitaries with uh, with their security detail matched with mine did did we actually see what uh, what what can only be described as really compelling phenomena over the property and that day was a game changer. But, you know, I tell people all the time it it took 6 months of owning the property before I myself personally had an experience that I could say was was unusual. I mean, up until that time I just found the property to be a a very strikingly beautiful um, you know, landscape. I mean, you you have this incredible uh, mesa that runs the expanse of the property that has cave systems in it and you have waterways, you have old, you know, pioneer era homesteads that are still standing on the property that are that are haunting looking and uh you know, add quite a bit to the backdrop. It’s right out of a John Wayne movie or Westworld. I I don’t know if you’ve seen that the series Westworld.
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
>> But it you could shoot the entire first and second season of of Westworld on this property and get away with it because you have such a diverse landscape that is just stunning. So, I I I was very surprised when, you know, half a year into it, you know, a lot of crazy things happened and I had my own experience uh that’s that I can’t deny to this day with multiple witnesses. It’s one thing to have an experience to visually see something that defies explanation, but to have witnesses standing with you that’s uh that had professed earlier in the day that they were skeptical as well and and had their entire worldviews turned upside down. I mean, that that’s uh that [snorts] really ushers in quite a quite a paradigm shift, if you will.
>> Well, it says something that within months you had a spike in the activity that I guess has continued unabated because you know the history as as I do that there are long stretches of time where it seems like nothing happens. It you know, during the last few years of Bigelow’s ownership, it basically whatever it is, it went underground. It didn’t want to be haunted. It didn’t want to show itself anymore. Might It might have its own uh ideas about sizing people up as as you and I have discussed before, but it’s continued for you and your team pretty much the whole time, right?
>> Yeah, I mean, it it’s unpredictable. I mean, the phenomena it it’s transient.
You know, the electromagnetic phenomena, for example, is completely unpredictable.
Uh but it it does it does happen with regularity and, you know, just when you think that the the ranch has gone quiet, you know, someone someone visits and has a a profound experience. It was It was funny. We had uh we had a an investigative crew in this past year uh that that came in after, you know, filming had concluded for the the History Channel series for season 1.
And this this crew was was uh with KSL Television out of Salt Lake City.
And, you know, they asked me before coming out, you know, should we should we expect to to see anything today? And I told them I said, “Don’t expect to see anything unusual.
And I look forward to allowing you to, you know, to film the property and ask any questions, meet with the team.” >> Uh you know, during the 20 years that Robert Bigelow owned uh the ranch property, a lot of infuriating things would happen. Whatever this intelligence is there, it proved to be elusive. So, they’d have a a period of activity, strange activity in one part of the property, they’d put cameras up specifically to target that area, and then the activity would move to where it was just outside of camera range. Or they’d go walking with cameras and and see something with their eyes, take a picture of of it, and they it would not be there at all. Or it’d turn out really fuzzy. Or the camera would die. The battery would die. Battery packs would die. Equipment would fail again and again and again. Or say you have spent a long night out on the ranch and the range looking for weird stuff to try to capture images of it, you decide to call it a night, head back to the to the house, turn off the camera, and that’s when things hit the fan.
Uh Brendan Fugel and his team have had similar experiences. We’re going to hear of specific stories about what they’ve seen, what strange activity they’ve documented. So, Brendan, before the break, we’re talking about the unpredictable nature of what goes on out there. This team from KSL comes out to do a story about the ranch. What happens?
>> Well, they came out and I I prepared them to to to not see anything. I told them don’t expect anything unusual to happen and and gave them my own experience that I, you know, I had gone 6 months as the owner without seeing anything with my own eyes that was that was unusual and and so I prepared them for what would be hopefully a a memorable day looking at a scenic backdrop and landscape with a very mysterious history and uh and they were shocked to find all sorts of things happened the day that they visited. I mean, not only did their drone fall out of the sky right there on camera and and it ended up showing a a warning message that popped up that the drone operator had never seen in years of of handling, you know, drones for, you know, television investigations and whatnot. She’d never seen this this message came out come up and the message was that it stated extreme electromagnetic interference detected.
Um and it was just in red, just blinking. And it just baffled them and then, you know, corresponding with that um a lot of our other sensors, our our tri-field meters, you know, that we had elevated RF uh radio frequency that just encompassed the ranch for a period of minutes. And upon pulling up the uh the footage, you know, some of our camera surveillance footage of the sky we were surprised to see a dark object pass from one cloud up into another at the exact same moment that the drone was rendered inoperable. And and in pulling up the footage, you know, for the the time both proceeding and following the the object going in and out of these clouds, there was no record of of where it came for from or where it went. And it just left everyone baffled.
And then that evening, you know, they set up, you know, in the dark, you know, cameras at the old homesteads that, you know, the infamous homestead, too.
And captured what they they believed was a flame or something that looked like a flame coming out of the floorboards of this old, you know, pioneer structure. And it it’s it was just inexplicable. Uh very uh very interesting experiences that were compelling. And I think the most compelling part of these experiences that occurred on camera that were presented. And you can go to YouTube. You can You can YouTube at KSL Skinwalker Ranch. You know, the most compelling part of it all is was the the correlation.
And it it wasn’t just a UFO sighting. It was a UFO sighting simultaneous with, you know, drone malfunction and other electromagnetic anomalies that occurred. And and that data, you know, those accounts that we continue to to document and a catalog are what I think set our investigation apart from everything else that has come before.
>> You know, what? This is a story that we haven’t told publicly, but one of the last times I was at the property outside, we we had a drone and it was flying outside the boundaries of your property.
It flew just a little ways away from where we were and then came back and went dive-bombed right at my head with the and it hit me in the face and it’s recorded. I’ll have to I’ll have to share that with you. When you tell people, “Oh, yeah, we we saw something great, but we didn’t get a shot of it because the batteries died or the equipment died, the camera died or some kind of electronic interference.” They’ll go, “Ah, come on. I don’t believe that.” But it happens again and again and again. And I’m sure it probably happened to the production crew working on season 2, right?
>> Constantly. Yeah, throughout season 1 and season 2.
And you know, the the the interesting thing was, you know, we brought on numerous third-party experts. I mean, we brought on engineering companies, you know, people that were engaged with uh the rocketry experiments. We had an instrumented, you know, rockets. We also had instrumented balloons. We had, you know, ground-penetrating radar studies and resistivity studies that were conducted on the property. And I’ve got to tell you, George, every single one that came out um left scratching their heads because of just strange everything from equipment malfunctions that occurred that, you know, these people would go on camera stating that they’d never seen before to to, you know, these third-party witnesses, you know, observing strange phenomena, whether be in the sky above the ranch or or picking up on their sensors below the ranch that defied any conventional explanation.
Uh it it just all adds up to to really quite a quite a science project.
>> When it comes to evidence, so I’ve got it I’ve had these discussions with people. I’ll tell them about the kinds of activity that’s been documented there both before you got there and and since your team’s been on the ground that these strange things do occur, it’s hard to describe a a a meaning to it or to figure out what the cause of it is. You can’t really say it’s paranormal except you can’t understand it and you can’t explain it uh even when people like Travis Taylor and your scientific team are there. Um I guess it it boils down to whether people are open-minded or not, but the nature of the evidence that you’ve collected is it really is physical at times. It really does have physical effects, but you it’s hard to figure out what’s behind it.
>> Yeah, and and so much of it is observational science.
Um my principal investigator and and really the chief scientist at Skinwalker Ranch that I’ve trusted with other projects for over a decade is is physicist Eric Bard and Eric constantly states that uh you know, we’re not here to believe or disbelieve, we’re here to observe.
And he also says that, you know, correlation does not mean causation. And and and always I think turns a skeptical eye toward any event or claim regarding the ranch that occurs. And you know, I think with with scientific rigor and a a focus on on collecting the data, uh I mean, we’re we’re really determined to to bring forward, I think, the best evidence that, you know, something truly extraordinary is is happening. You know, I get I get asked all the time, is is this UF is this activity, this UFO activity and other high strangeness, is it attributed to to extraterrestrials?
You know, visitors from other worlds? Is it interdimensional in nature or is it spiritual?
Angels and demons. And the honest answer based on the data is all of the above.
>> What about military? So, I’ve asked you about this before, but that’s a story that gets passed around by people who want to dismiss the whole thing. This is some kind of military experiment.
They’re shooting beam weapons at at all you guys and messing with your head.
What do you think?
>> I I you know, I wish in some ways that would be a lot more comforting.
Um because that’s at least something we can wrap our minds around, but uh to be honest, when we you know, when we brought Dr. Taylor on site, you know, Dr. Taylor who works on various government programs, holds high security clearances. I mean, he he’s working right now actively, with NASA and other other um agencies. I mean, he he uh he was very vocal with the fact that, you know, a lot of what we we thought that we were seeing or had reported in the past could very well, you know, have have, you know, some very conventional explanation, be part of some you know, skunk works, some covert aerospace program. And, you know, Dr. Taylor’s gone on record stating numerous times since since filming season 1, uh that’s that he he doesn’t believe that you can ascribe, you know, the the origin or the agenda associated with the phenomena out at Skinwalker Ranch to to some government program or, you know, black you know, black budget project or covert aerospace program.
>> There is legitimate risk. I mean, you must get pestered 50 times a day. Hey, can I go to the ranch? I I know you get hit with it on social media. I get hit with it every day. How don’t you tell your friend Brandon that I I’m I’ll go to the ranch. I’ll figure this stuff out. You guys have got it all wrong.
I’ll go there. You know, and of course, naturally, people are curious about it, but it’s not a good idea to let a lot of people on there, and it’s not because there is a legitimate interactive quality and that it is unpredictable what will happen.
>> Yeah, you know, the George, the the sobering part of my stewardship is the fact that that there is danger involved and the people have been hurt um under my watch. Uh we’ve had a number of people even this past year that have ended up in the hospital with injuries that’s that that baffle, you know, medical professionals.
Uh you know, pe- pe- people are always asking me, “Where’s your data?” You know, “Where’s your data? You talk about acute medical episodes you know, occurring relative to the property, but where’s your data? And the the reality is we have hundreds of pages of medical reports and studies associated with with the number of unfortunate incidents where people have ended up you know, with some very disturbing injuries and illnesses associated with their their time on the property. And you know, it’s it’s not for the faint of heart. We require everyone who enters the property you know, we we require them to sign a a liability waiver you know, acknowledging the risks associated with you know, with with the ranch. And it’s it’s really sobering.
It’s something that we’re we’re really trying to to wrap our minds around and and and take I think further precautions with. I mean, we’ve health and safety is something that we’ve had to to really um focus even more on this past year in light of the uh the incidents that have occurred.
>> Thomas Winterton, good guy. He had an a really strange injury. Sent him to the hospital. You didn’t know if he was going to make it. How’s he doing?
>> Yeah, he’s doing well. He’s he’s you know, nearly recovered.
Uh you know, Dr. Taylor also you know, ended up you know, going to the hospital with injuries and >> Radiation. He was exposed to radiation, right?
>> Correct. Correct. And when you know, you saw on camera with with season 1 um you know, when they went back to test the area you know, they couldn’t find any evidence of radiation or or any trace of what could have you know caused those injuries to occur, but they’re very real.
And you know, in the case of of Thomas Winterton, life-threatening. I mean, there were it was it was touch and go there for a few days when he was in the hospital.
And you know, it’s Yeah, and there are others that that we really can’t get into but that are just as real.
>> I I was going to ask you a question.
There’s a story you told me, maybe it’s too personal. I would understand if you can’t answer it, but you shared it with me about a really big guy who was there, big tough guy who basically was frozen.
Uh can you share that story?
>> Completely immobilized. You have Well, you know, the You You remember me mentioning you know, 6 months into my ownership, we had a a really uh incredible day where where a lot of things happened at once.
On that particular day, the uh the security, the armed security for the visiting dignitary, who was this huge, I mean, 6’6″ huge hulk of a man, um who was accompanying us uh for the the tour of the ranch uh with this individual ended up um ended up not only being completely immobilized, but ended up in the hospital for weeks um immediately following his visit with uh with the illness that that just baffled the doctors. And it was it was interesting when when we were out exploring the homestead, we we were out in these UTVs and we we pulled up in the Polaris Ranger, it was this open-air UTV. We all got out, went around the front, and and within minutes, a lot of strange things happened. Um you know, Eric Bard, my my principal investigator, his his smartphone started going crazy. He captured it.
Um there and and was able to actually screen capture what was happening. And then everyone was feeling kind of a sense of vertigo um that was there and then and then we we realized that this this security professional was absent that he had not followed us around the front and wasn’t there. So, I went to go seek him out and see where he was and as I they walked around the back of the old homestead it was like I was entering an anechoic chamber, a soundproof room and you know, George you you know what it’s like when you enter a soundproof chamber. You know, it’s it’s really a strange sensation. All the ambient noise comes to a halt. I mean, it feels like you know, that sensation when you when you cup your hands to your ears and and then I see this individual standing fully upright in the back of this open-air UTV with his eyes shut and and not responding to to me shouting his name. Well, as the ambient noise came back and you know, the the strange sensation subsided and I came up to to the vehicle saying his name, his eyes fluttered open and you know, he started moving and he said, “Wow, what happened?” And um and he said he he began to explain that when everyone was jumping out of the UTV he was completely frozen couldn’t move and then everything went black.
And he asked he says, “How long have I been How long have I been standing here?” And I said, “Well, about 10 minutes.” And uh I asked him if he’d ever had that sort of experience before in his life and he said, “Absolutely not.” And was was really visibly shaken.
Um it was it was quite a strange experience.
I mean, the the missing time, if you will, the the fact that he was immobilized and you talk about a a documented account of an acute medical episode that led to hospitalization the next day with someone who was in perfect health, with the strength of an ox.
Uh I mean, it’s it’s undeniable.
>> You know, the the property sort of of um it sizes you up and some of the most uh most dangerous sort of effects I I don’t know. It seems like people who go there packing weapons, uh military people, and intelligence people who are really tough hombres and and male and female, they’re the ones that get the brunt of it. Uh >> Yeah. It it it can bring people to their knees. Voice and uh confidant to me. So, it’s it’s great to be with you. This is, I believe, historic. I don’t think anyone would have imagined in years past, you know, a broadcast live from the most scientifically studied paranormal hotspot, especially with the core team all patching in for, really, I I think your program, which is uh which is in a a special place globally as a voice concerning these topics. So, it’s good to be with you.
>> Uh I’m I’m thrilled. I want to hear from all your your colleagues there. Brandon, you know, I’ve reported this before that you were a skeptic going in, a friendly skeptic, open-minded, but really not convinced that there was something legitimately going on there. So, 6 years into your ownership and coming into the third year of the TV series, what’s your skepticism level now?
>> Yeah, good question. And yes, I did start off as a healthy skeptic. I’d never seen a ghost or a UFO or anything of that sort in my life. And for the first 6 months of my ownership, of course, I I didn’t experience any anything unusual. Well, of course that has all changed. I’m often asked if I’m a believer now.
And I think I share the same opinion and and and share the same position that members of my team now inhabit and that is I’m not a believer, I’m an experiencer.
>> You know, people figure and by the way I have to say Brandon I I respect the patience that you’re showing your interactions with people on social media. You have way more of it than I will ever have to put up with the kind of stuff that you put up with, but it comes with the territory as you know.
People figure well, this is a TV show.
It must be scripted and the events we see maybe that’s special effects created for the show. Both of those viewpoints are wrong, right?
>> Oh, couldn’t be more wrong. We’ve never had a script, never had anything pushed in front of us. In fact, that was a key condition of entering into the agreement with the History Channel. It had to be 100% fact, real, not contrived, fabricated, or manipulated in any way. And I think it’s important to note that none of us had ever been on television and had never really anticipated ever anything like this in our lives. So, this is this is a very unexpected and new experience for us.
>> Let me ask Eric if he’s there. You know, you also hear from your critics Brandon and and people post things on Twitter and other social media. There’s no evidence. This isn’t really count as evidence. It’s just random events. Eric Bard, can you address the idea of evidence? Is it fair to say you have evidence, but you’re not sure evidence of what?
>> Well, I think you’ve said it well, George.
Yes, we have a lot of events that are unusual, outlier events. You know, these are not everyday occurrences.
A lot of things that defy prosaic treatment. We are continuing uh, for lack of a better term, we’re continuing to vet the inherited narrative. Uh, you know, there’s a lot of work that precedes ours. And so, you know, as we put the pieces together, they self-assemble. And we can see that we are collecting data of the kind uh, that really in many ways does match the description, uh, that we find throughout that narrative. You know, we’re talking about uh, luminous phenomena, and of course anomalies that you’ve already named with electronic devices. Um, and then there are subjective or visceral, uh, experiences of those who are here, either the residents or the visitors, occupants of the ranch, um, you know, experience all sorts of sensory, uh, unusual, uh, uh, assault. Uh, for again, I don’t know if I’m I’m, uh, I don’t know if I’m understating it or or overstating it, but when you have uh, groups of people who experience, uh, bouts of vertigo, um, hearing unusual sounds whose origins cannot be identified. Um, hair are standing on end. Uh, the sense that you’re being, uh, targeted for predation by something you can’t see. I think I think, um, all of this is ongoing, and of course it’s interesting to us.
>> Well, and George, this is Brandon, and important to note that what we’ve brought to bear on our docu-series is is compelling evidence. I mean, we’re showing video, photographic evidence coupled with with eyewitness accounts, most of which are accompanied by third-party expert, uh, you know, voices that have, uh, that have been involved with our investigation.
And and this all correlates to a degree with acute medical episodes, electromagnetic anomalies, all carefully documented and presented. I mean, you add all of that up and you present it, it’s very difficult for me to understand how someone can be so dismissive or skeptical when we’re presenting what I believe to be the most compelling evidence ever presented in history relative to the reality of these topics.
>> You know, a lot of the things that happen, you could look at them individually and say, “Well, that’s kind of mundane. The compass is acting weird or the batteries die or the camera goes out.” It’s when you look at the totality of this stuff that it gets pretty strange. Uh you know, the Bigelow teams that were there, NIDS and then BAASS, the secret government-funded program, they didn’t have the kinds of cameras that you have. They weren’t trying to create a TV show. Brandon, you put in cameras, a lot of cameras, before the TV show was even uh a thought in your head.
And you guys have been able to document the the plethora of weird little tiny things that happened.
I’m looking at season 2. I watched a couple episodes today and uh you know, the things with the compasses, the the batteries dying, the the unique uh combination of events that’ll happen where you set off a rocket and then orbs appear and then the the rocket guys get some weird magnetic effects. You have a lot of those kinds of things that you’re able to document now because you got the cameras there.
>> Well, and we have some of the most advanced scientific instrumentation that has been brought to bear to better document and understand these issues. And I’m we we we showed how we’re utilizing very expensive FLIR camera systems and SLAM scanners in order to better document and uh monitor the spaces here on the ranch that have a history associated with them. And being able to to to draw from all these scientific platforms that were put in place well before any television effort was discussed. This is a unique opportunity, I believe, for the general public to be actively participating in an ongoing scientific investigation.
>> Eric, you know, there are measurable phenomena there. There’s no question.
Electromagnetic anomalies, uh gravitational, I mean, you’ve got uh you know, effects, uh radiation, gamma rays, things that you can measure, but they’re fleeting. Uh they’re there 1 minute and then they’re gone. Uh as as if they just poof, vanish, which shouldn’t be the way it is, but it is how it is, right?
>> Yep. You know, we tire of using the same terminology over and over, but it applies and that is we’re dealing with transient phenomena.
They’re they’re they’re transient, which means they’re short-lived, just as you said. They also appear to be localized, happening in one location on the ranch, not another, and sometimes so localized that if we have a group of people gathered together or a group of instruments, one person or one instrument will register something and another will not.
Um you know, you know, it’s it’s it’s difficult to get one’s mind around it and it’s it’s very trying of my patience and I think sometimes of the patience of our entire team.
>> Well, try try to put yourself in the shoes of Thomas Winterton, who is tasked with overseeing a lot of the physical facilities and the infrastructure and I I don’t think there’s a more frustrated person some days than Tom Winterton. Would would you say so, Tom?
>> Well, I I think I’ve lost track of the number of times that Eric has uh notified me that we’re having problems with the specific camera or or instrument uh I I go out there to start troubleshooting it only to have it uh bring itself back online and start working correctly or or it it that one will work fine and it moves to another area. Uh I I’ve lost count of the number of times that we have tried to troubleshoot something and and leave more mystified than when I got there.
>> Thomas, let me ask you this. Your friend Eric Bard, sitting there next to you, has spent an inordinate amount of time on the property.
In his in history of the of the ranch, you know, people that spend a lot of time out there, there are consequences for them. There’s the old saying that you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss stares back at you. I’m paraphrasing. Thomas, you know that to be true better than maybe anyone. You’ve had consequences. Uh do you worry for your friend Eric? And do you worry for yourself and your other colleagues there in light of what’s happened to you?
>> I I do and I think as time goes on uh the concern grows. Um as as I come into contact with individuals that have spent time on this ranch and and I look at our team and the amount of time that we’re spending here and the things that are happening uh whether it be to our health or even worse uh to to the you know, our our families and those that we care about around us.
Uh it’s a concern that I’ve had and it’s one that is actually growing with time.
>> Well, I want to get into some details on that as we uh proceed through the evening, but I want to get the other uh two guests, your team members involved as well. Caleb, I know at the end of season 2 you all sort of reached a conclusion that it was kind of a crossroads that you had to decide how deep you wanted to go because there are consequences. There are risks there.
What did What did you guys mean by that?
And how do you feel now heading into season 3?
>> Well, when you’re dealing with something like this, one of the things that I look at being on the military and law enforcement side of things is a lot of things I can train for, but a lot of the things that we’re seeing out here, there is no guidebook. There is uh no there’s nothing to pre- to prepare me for it. Um and then on top of that, we also are dealing with a human element that tries to complicate things unintentionally or intentionally and so it’s where we got a lot of moving parts out here.
And it’s just we got a really good team that’s able to work on the fly with each other and it’s just been a big growing experience if you will.
>> Well, I’ll interject and this is Brandon here next to Caleb. We’re in a very special position to have Caleb in that he is full-time law enforcement. He’s a full-time with the police department when he’s trading off shifts with Dragon and our other security detail to so to have full-time law enforcement with military background and expertise is it’s next level.
When you look at the the sophistication and the commitment of our investigation now as compared to years past.
>> Yeah, well, if you you know, I want to get into the the testimony you get from law enforcement past and present because I think they carry a lot of credibility, but I want to ask Caleb we have about 2 minutes.
Can you share with us what was going on with your phone at the end of season 2 cuz it seems like that can’t be much of a big deal, but when you add it into the context of what was going on there, it was pretty strange.
>> Yeah, I’ve been on the ranch now for about 5 and 1/2 years and that phone I’ve had it for probably most of it and I actually got a new one and that new one actually exhibited some of that same phenomenon going on with it within 3 months of being on the ranch and a lot of people like to say that the screen was damaged and things like that.
Yeah, it was damaged but I again, I’m I’m fighting with people in my other job. I got a lot of things going on and It’s not going to sit there and fix my phone every time I got a crack in it, but it’s kind of one of those things that whenever we’re having these bigger experiments going on, we’re always looking for any little thing that’s going up that’s out of the ordinary and a lot of it was my phone was exhibiting these things around those specifically when we’re launching rockets or when we’re out uh doing some excavation and things like that. And then um one of the biggest things for me was I don’t know if uh this information is out there with my phone is it only happened on the ranch for about the first two or three years. It never occurred off the ranch or anywhere else.
It was only here on the ranch.
>> And it basically something cracked the code. I mean, breaking into somebody’s iPhone is hard. It’s hard to do.
Intelligence agencies wish they could do it, uh but something broke into yours.
It was displaying other languages. Am I exaggerating that?
>> Well, it was actually it was cycling through all the different language settings on my phone and uh exhibiting different sequences of words and things like that. Uh specifically around like uh 911 and emergency and almost like we you know, that’s where we don’t know if it was a warning or >> Well, >> was calling for help, you know.
>> It was one of a series of really strange things that happened. We’re going to get into some of those and then maybe you can give us some hints about what’s coming as you continue to poke the bear, Brandon Fugal and his team at Skinwalker Ranch.
You know, we’re talking about different phenomena on the ranch and you have to ask the question, is it evil? You know, there is an intelligence there. It plays mind games on folks who visit the property. It seems to anticipate what people are going to do even before they do it or before they even plan to to do it. It messes with people sometimes physically. Some and some people more than others, you know, the phenomena seems to react to different people who visit the property in very different ways and occasionally gets extremely negative. We’re going to get into some of the reports on that and I want to ask our team members, the Skinwalker Ranch team members, if they have experienced what they call hitchhikers. I think the first time I was on Skinwalker Ranch, before it was called Skinwalker Ranch, 2001 or so, there was a guy there I met named Joseph Junior Hicks and uh he was the unofficial historian of UFO cases incidents for the Uinta Basin. He’d been a science teacher, had investigated hundreds of cases, kept meticulous files and we’re standing there looking at this red sandstone ridge above the property and he says, “Oh yeah, that’s the in the path of the Skinwalker.” And I go, “What?” Skinwalker, what? And he told me about the legend and I knew right then that was a term that had stuck in my head, that it would be part of a title.
Had no idea that it would be known worldwide by you guys and your part of your TV show, but Joseph Junior Hicks was able to establish a timeline for events that have happened on the ranch, around the ranch, throughout the basin.
And you and Brandon, you’ve been able to put together a timeline that extends way, way back. There are those, as you know, who suspect Robert Bigelow made all this stuff up or maybe Terry Sherman made it up so he could unload the property on a Las Vegas billionaire.
But in fact, you’ve researched it thoroughly how far back it goes, right?
>> Yep. 1930s. All nearly a hundred years of credible accounts and documented incidents. I mean, we featured live testimony by former law enforcement that’s actually interacted with the former owners that preceded the Shermans back in the mid 80s that that really came here and reported responded to all sorts of disturbing activity that was plaguing the the residents at that time. So, this is something that that goes way back.
Joseph Jr. Hicks was a very well-respected uh teacher, uh scientist, and really a documentarian who sadly passed away, you know, about a year and a half ago, uh had kept meticulous records, as you know, going back to 1952 documenting the reality of the phenomena in the in the the Uinta Basin, and uh this this very unique area. And even though we’re we’re sad to see him, you know, no longer with us physically, we have countless hours of interviews that we conducted with him during our stewardship, the last 6 years before his passing, that uh we’ll be able to release and share with others on our uh web portal, which we’re updating right now at www.skinwalker-ranch.com.
We’ll be posting some of these very uh interesting, and I think compelling, interviews with Junior Hicks and others that uh that really attest to the reality of this being something that has has been happening for a long, long time.
>> You had his son on the program in season 2, and it just I about fell over because he handed your your team a thick file of his father’s stuff. These meticulous records, drawings of the of the craft that had been seen, and so many of them, as the program included, looked like the things that you’ve been seeing on the property now.
>> Yeah. Well, and his son is a very respected professional as well. And for him to come forward, I I you know, we don’t take that lightly.
I and to to be able to properly care for and preserve the documentation and the files of Junior Hicks under our stewardship is something we take very seriously.
>> Dr. Chris Lehto, I want to bring you into this. You know, I I’ve got to know that the team members here at the the crew of the investigators and and I know that no one set out to be a TV star. I don’t I can’t imagine that any of them are really thrilled to be on television to become celebrities, which they have become. They’re seen all over the world now. Could you tell me what it’s like to be part of the program? How people react the general public when they realize you’re the guy who’s working with the Skinwalker Ranch team?
>> As um as a whole, people have been very interested, very uh excited actually to hear about the experience, to hear about uh what’s happening, to learn more about the process. Um I’m a science guy, so people are always asking me about the equipment, um what types of equipment are being set up and you know, the sophistication behind the thought process of what to get, what to put um on the ranch and how to monitor, collect data as well as um look at it from a scientific perspective.
>> And and are you in a position where you can be a critic and tell the team, “Hey, I wouldn’t do it this way.” or “I think you’re jumping to the wrong conclusions.” kind of a thing, a a voice of reason cuz you’re sort of outside the day-to-day activity?
>> Uh definitely, yeah. There’s uh you know, there’s there’s no egos here as far as input and perspective.
Um I found everyone here to be very open to suggestions and input and kind of you know, an open discussion about uh different ways to look at things. Um again, it’s a very open group and and on a weekly or monthly basis things are being updated and looked at from a different point of view.
>> Eric Bard, cause and effect, physicists like you have a general idea about how that’s supposed to work, the flow of cause to effect, but at the ranch it it’s not always that way and figuring out the effects, why they happen is pretty difficult. In the season 2 you shot up all these rockets which even bigger than in season 1 and I had to admit I was jealous seeing you guys having fun out there shooting these things up as high as 13,000 ft loaded with the equipment sensors to try to gather data. As you said, not not every time is there some dramatic incident.
You had some pretty dramatic things and although it does seem like you’re having fun, um you know, sometimes you’re not. The one rocket guy who was there was overcome by a wave of energy that made his hair stand up and he got kind of sickly and goosebumps and orb appeared in the same spot in the sky as a year before. You had cows stampeding. You never know what’s going to happen when you in effect poke the bear, right?
>> That’s a good description.
You know, determining which things are cause and which things are effect can be a challenge here.
You know, a story comes to mind if I can share it. I’ll try to be brief.
>> Sure.
>> Um the timing of things is so often so suggestive as to be troubling. You know, we’ll be having a conversation about something and I’ll and I’ll I’ll share one one example of this. You know, I I I was participating in an interview for one of the local news agencies and the the two individuals who came out from the from the news agency were of course interested in the physical effects themselves. You know, what might be the physics behind the phenomenology.
And I started to relate uh the physics and what evidence we have to support the conjecture that there may be some very strong transient magnetic fingerprint, for example. And as we were having that discussion, no sooner had I said those those words, but we saw uh some of the the the cameras begin to malfunction. We saw uh the battery depletion, you know, which is a very common occurrence. And then a second camera a replacement camera refused to connect. Um I continued my narrative about magnetic transients um and what some of the uh the the medical or, you know, specifically the the neurological effects might be. Uh very interesting conversation. We wrapped up. Uh the crew went outside and uh the the woman Megan, who was the camera and drone operator, uh got her drone aloft for a brief time, but then had to bring it back down uh because she received a message on the controller. That message was to the effect, “Excessive magnetic interference detected.
Uh please relocate uh to a better environment.” So, you know, this is so so closely tied to the discussion that we had had just moments before, it’s very suggestive. It’s almost as if we’re being surveilled or as or or it is as if something is happening in response to the things that we are discussing or the plans that we’re making, if not to the very thoughts that we’re having.
>> Uh Thomas Winterton, let me ask you this. I mean, you believe that the the ranch sort of sizes you up, uh sort of along the lines of what Eric was saying there, that people come to it obviously with different expectations. And uh and sometimes it it uh really uh seizes on people, picks them out, and and gives them a really bad time. I I know you can’t give away everything that’s going to happen in season 3, but can you address that general idea about how different people get different reactions from their different expectations and whether or not you think that the presence there is evil.
>> Well, it’s a great question and and and it’s one that coming onto the ranch for the first time I thought was absolutely ludicrous and crazy.
But spending time here and and observing and witnessing the things that are happening, you come to the conclusion that there couldn’t be any other any other uh explanation for it. And you know, going into season 3, I think that the viewers can expect to to see more of the phenomena that that just lends credibility to that. And it’s hard like you know, Eric alluded to earlier. Um when you have a group of individuals standing around and and some are feeling effects while others standing right next to them are not. Um when we have instruments that are displaying numbers and messages that are specific to the person that’s carrying them.
Uh as all these things add up, it’s hard to not feel like you’re being targeted.
And it does seem like for some reason it affects others more you know, it affects some more than others.
And uh it may just be my observation, but I do feel like the type of attitude that you come onto the ranch with uh may have an effect on the kind of experience you have. I came on with a very cavalier attitude, uh very skeptical attitude and and I have to say I’ve been humbled. And as I watch others, you know, those that seem to come on with reverence and with respect seem to have a little bit better go of it um than than those that came on like me.
>> You were not only humbled, you were endangered. I mean, I don’t know how far you want to go into to the details because they’re very private, you know, personal, but your life was in danger because of what happened on the property or associated with the property, right?
>> Uh during my tenure here on the ranch, I did have a uh an unexplained head injury that uh landed me in the hospital, hospitalized me for a week. Uh about midway through that stay, my doctor advised my wife that uh there was a good chance that I may not pull out of it and if I did that I would have uh permanent uh brain damage. And so uh it was it’s definitely there’s definitely been some scary uh medical effects to me myself as well as other members of the team.
>> Caleb, uh it seems to me that some of the most dramatic things that have happened to people and the longest-lasting effects uh have occurred to people who are packing weapons, who come in with a uh gung-ho kind of defiant attitude and they’re they’re packing weapons, packing heat. You wear a a weapon out there often. Um has it singled you out and could you address the general idea about whether it’s dangerous?
>> Um I’ve actually had a injury myself and it’s going to be something that I’m going to be opening up more about on our website. Uh and kind of tell that story a little bit more, but I’ve never felt like I’ve been targeted and the intention why I’m carrying weapons is purely for defense. Um and for protection. Uh not only for myself, but those around me. And so I think that attitude has carried over to overall had a very positive experience on the ranch. I’ve experienced a lot of really interesting and unexplainable things uh that I’ve seen um and it’s just something that I I will always carry a weapon just from my experiences on and off the ranch uh particularly in the law enforcement um and it’s just I don’t feel comfortable with not having something and it’s just it’s kind of that safety blanket if you will.
>> As you all know uh it’s now called the hitchhiker effect. The something that we’ve been reporting on for the past couple of years about particularly during the ASAP study, the bass years, the DIA program that was involved the ranch for a couple of years uh that some of the personnel who went there, government personnel, tough hombres, uh intelligence officers, combat veterans who went there who were really frightened out of their wits by what they encountered and then it followed them. It followed them and uh it sort of spreads like a virus. Uh and it manifesting itself in different ways to their family members. You know, that has happened to Mr. Bigelow, that happened to Colm Kelleher, it happened in my home and for these people, some of the folks that it happened to under the ASAP program, it’s been going on in their homes for 10 years. Dr. Lee, I know this really sounds strange, but that premise to a man of science would sound ridiculous uh but you you must have heard those kind of stories now.
I’d like to ask you about it first and then Brandon and Eric and Thomas and Caleb, has anything like that happened to you?
>> No, I’ve I’ve not personally had any experience like that here.
>> What Well, you what do you think even think of the premise? It it doesn’t make any sense, does it? But uh pretty reliable people say it happens.
>> Yeah, so I I agree. Um there’s a long history here of uh very um um difficult to explain physical and uh other type of um phenomenon that again difficult to put a medical diagnosis to it.
Um and you know, you can’t discredit the the many people who have who have claimed or talked about their experiences. Um I myself, I haven’t been you know, I haven’t lived out on the ranch or been out on the ranch near as much as the other members of the team. I’ve been more of an outside >> Right.
>> consultant or advisors um more specifically to some of the electromagnetic phenomenon, but uh But you know, it’s >> Right.
Right. Uh well, you might be able when I count your uh blessings then if you’re not there all the time. Brandon, let me ask you uh any hitchhiker type effects for you or any other members of your of your team that you can talk about? And have you reached a conclusion about whether this thing is evil or whether it’s uh is doesn’t really care about its effects on people at all.
>> I think we’re definitely dealing with forces or entities that are malevolent.
That’s evidenced by the targeting that has taken place by the acute medical episodes and and other incidents.
We we have unfortunately a number of cases with our own team of the hitchhiker effect being very real in their worlds where you know, certain phenomena in many cases disturbing troubling phenomena has followed them home has been witnessed by their families and has left them I think to to a degree with a elevated concern.
It’s one thing to experience things on the ranch but to have something follow you home and impact dependents it’s it’s quite another.
>> Eric Bard, uh you spend uh way too much time on the property.
You spend it by yourself. I know your friends and colleagues there worry about you out there. What about you? If anyone’s going to have something follow them home, I think it would be you.
>> George, this is it’s not an easy topic to address. Um partic- particularly um particularly when it’s ongoing.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I’m just as I’m just as interested in comparing notes with you uh as I am in in in sharing anything that’s happened in my own home or uh in the in the space between the ranch and my home.
>> This phenomena, this intelligence at the ranch, uh it doesn’t seem to mind being seen at times. It but it’s in control.
It decides what you get to see, what you don’t. It’s like it’ll pull the rug out from under you when you just when you think you’re making progress. It confounds you. It uh seems to revel in um in puzzling uh the team of investigators. Is this solvable? Uh you know, is can it be resolved?
>> Well, we’re definitely assembling more pieces to the puzzle than has ever been before uh brought to bear in order to understand and invalidate the reality of what we’re doing and experiencing.
Um It’s interesting. You know, our predecessors, scientists uh military operatives who served on the ranch described the phenomena as a precognitive non-human sentient intelligence.
And that there there is there is an element that seems to be one two steps ahead of us at times, and and and does allow itself to be recorded at times and at others, and I think most of the time appears to be using some type of cloaking uh technology in order to evade uh being closely documented.
>> Eric, same question. You know, a lot of the experiments that you design, firing up rockets, you’re really trying to provoke a reaction. You don’t know if it’s going to react or not. You don’t know what exactly it’s going to do you you can do to get a reaction. Couple of things have proven useful. Digging in the ground, for example, uh drilling, uh these rockets seem to provoke actions here and there, but not always. Um it’s like whatever this intelligence is, it decides when you get to see something, right?
>> Yeah, to to to imagine that we are in control as if there are buttons and levers at our disposal um would be to to deceive yourself. You know, obviously, as I think you know, um we are sometimes reduced to the role of observers, and perhaps that’s where we do best. You know, um I don’t mind admitting that sometimes I have even faced criticism that my approach has been very light-handed um in so far as I like to see things in their nascent state. I like to observe the ranch in its in its uh in its natural state, see what happens without any provocation. But as you said, experiments of the kind that uh that you just named, the rockets, the digging, and so forth, such as we see in the televised series, are the the diametric opposite approach. Let’s see if in fact we do uh elicit a response.
Um you know, I think I think uh both approaches have merit.
Um but I think we’re learning uh just as much from observing the ranch and treating the ranch, if you will, as a crime scene and doing as little as possible to alter it, not making any irreversible changes, being as as non-invasive as possible under some circumstances, and then, when led by the data, doing things that actually do change the environment, such as digging.
>> Thomas, you you’ve had some experience on digging, and you know that when you dig on the ranch, you know, things pop up, things happen elsewhere on the property as if they’re sort of connected.
You know, there was an incident at the end of season 2 where you guys had this helicopter flying over the triangle and the all the instruments were telling the crew that there was something underneath that was flying along with the helicopter.
Was that in your view a dangerous situation? Was the intelligence, whatever it is, playing mind games and just trying to scare you?
>> Well, you know, when that was taking place, Dragon and I were on the ground here at the command center, and we were tasked with uh watching the the flight radar and helping direct Cameron and and Travis Neric up in the helicopter to make sure that they hit the points that we were interested in. And uh really, when it comes to those type of things, uh I really take my cues from, of course, Cameron, who is a very experienced pilot, and and has safety as first priority, and then I look to Eric and to Travis uh to to see what their reaction is, whether this is something that can be easily explained away.
And I have to say that you know, what what you didn’t see on TV very much was that as this was persisting, Cameron started to take some pretty evasive maneuvering maneuvers to see if they could evade this. And and and this was not just a once and and done. Cameron tried several times to evade it and Bryant and I on the ground, we couldn’t see anything. Uh not with the vis- not with the naked eye, not through the binoculars. There was nothing showing up on our radar on screen. And and so we started to get concerned as they were were radioing down to us and telling us that there was something below the helicopter. It wasn’t till they landed and when they unloaded from the helicopter, I could see the sheer I mean, they were worried and and that’s kind of when it set into Dragon and I that that uh it was pretty serious.
Um but yeah, it does rattle us. And uh when when you see Cameron and then you see you see Eric and Travis and all of them are extremely concerned at what they just witnessed.
Uh it causes concern for all of us.
>> I Do you think it’s solvable?
Ultimately?
>> You know, I think that we have the opportunity to learn more about it.
But it seems like it seems like it’s always one or two steps ahead of us. So um you know, sometimes I feel like it will allow us to know what it wants us to know and and and that’s the extent of it. You know, I heard you say you use the word special effects. Uh you know, sometimes people are asking if we do special effects on the show and and I was chuckling to myself because uh we don’t fabricate those. Any special effects they see on the show are compliments of the ranch.
>> Yeah.
Caleb, uh you know, you’re a lawman.
You’re used to investigating cases, uh cracking cases, putting bad guys away.
Uh and the show has done a great job of bringing other lawmen, retired, former lawmen in to tell what they know about the history of the property. I think that adds a lot of credibility. But this is the kind of case that would drive a lawman crazy And a scientist for that matter as well.
Do you think it’s solvable?
>> I agree. The biggest thing is a a lot of what we’re dealing with is what we’d call circumstantial evidence. You know, it’s points in the points in the direction, but it’s not that tangible thing that you can pick up, put in a bag, and lock away, and say we know what this is, and put it together like a puzzle.
And and that’s part of it is it’s you know, that’s kind of the journey is we’re trying to figure this out, and we got all these different narratives that we got to sort through just like in a case. You got all your witnesses, and they’re all saying what they saw, and everyone perceives things so differently, and that’s it’s hard trying to sift through all that.
And I think it’s something that I agree with how Tom just said it is I think we have a huge opportunity to really learn about some of this phenomenology going on.
But ultimately, I I don’t know if we could really say what’s going on.
>> Uh Dr. Chris Lee, you know, you’re a scientist, a man of science.
Scientists don’t like to admit that there’s something that might be outside the scope of science, that science might be flummoxed by this. Uh could you address that in general, whether this might be something that maybe is more of an intelligence issue, or religious phenomena, supernatural as opposed to something that science can eventually crack?
>> Yeah, it’s interesting when you when you talk about science or the scientific method, or you talk about study, um experimentation, you know, it’s always a search to learn more about something that we don’t know, and to expand what we know, and to push the uh push things forward. In in medicine, you know, it’s to find a new drug or a new cure or a new treatment. And in uh you know, in chemistry, it’s to develop and find a new tool to experiment or to devise or or answer questions regarding a specific compound or a specific state.
And uh you know, what I what I see here is this is a you know, this is a multi-disciplinary study looking at any looking at this ranch and the experiences currently and historic on this ranch. Um again with a multi-disciplinary team and as you put each of those puzzle pieces together more puzzle pieces that you have to add together into that um it to put together a more broad and uh a picture will allow um more to be known in the future and so you know, again, I’m a I’m a scientific person. I like to view things from a scientific nature and and I suspect that with time and more experiments that that more answers will be known and that you know, things will be moved forward as far as as far as knowledge goes.
>> I hope you’re right. Brandon, let’s talk about season 3. What what beans can you spill? I know at the end of season 2 you were kicking around some >> pretty lofty ideas uh whether or not to bring in new kinds of equipment. Uh Travis Taylor mentioned something about ground-penetrating radar uh positioned on a on a satellite platform.
Um you were discussing possibility of having a longer-term platform of some sort that could sit up there in the in the sky at 5,000 ft level and survey the land. Um what can you tell us about new technological approaches for season 3 or or new approaches in general?
>> Yeah, I I think you’ll see a whole new new level of instrumentation employed in service to to understanding and documenting what we’re dealing with. I mean, we’re talking the most advanced photogrammetry, lidar, and other technologies and I I’m really excited to unveil what what has transpired over the course of the last year, the last 6 months.
Um I think people are going to be surprised at the caliber of the professionals and also the uh the others that have uh that have shown interest in what is happening here on the ranch. There are going to be some very eye-opening moments even in the first episode of season 3 that will leave people, I think, really speechless. And I know that’s a bold statement, but uh the nature of our investigation, I think, is is going to take a a big leap forward in uh in most people’s eyes. And I’m just excited to to see how the public responds to what we have to reveal.
>> Uh you have a hit on your hands, right?
That that the season 2 finale, that was a big hit. And and uh History Channel, whether they wanted to keep you around or not before then, they certainly knew that they were keeping you around after that.
>> Well, it’s we’re just getting warmed up.
And I know that’s that sounds like a sales pitch. It really isn’t. This is an active ongoing scientific investigation.
This is happening 24/7, 365 days a year, regardless of whether there are television cameras here or production.
We’re just fortunate to have a very very good world-class team of producers that are helping us properly document and capture so much of the activity that uh that we’re we’re experiencing. And those things and some of it’s negative.
Uh some of it is very troubling. I think people are going to be left scratching their heads at some of the things that happen. Uh because uh a lot of it it it’s not positive. You know, and and we’re we’re dealing with some some negative uh byproducts of our investigation, but we’re also I think yielding some insights and presenting evidence that is has never been presented before.
Especially in in this type of compelling format.
>> Um Yeah, I well, I you know, you’ve shared some secrets with me. I’m sworn to secrecy, but I you know, I I was blown away by some of what’s coming.
>> Well, Eric Bard Maybe maybe you’ll be you know, maybe you’ll be featured and briefed on on this upcoming season.
>> Well, um those are beans I don’t want to spill. So, Eric Bard, you know, can this be resolved with technology? You you’ve got a laundry list of things you’d like to do, equipment you’d like to have.
Um or is it going to have to be solved on a person-to-person basis, things that happen to people as opposed to evidence that you gather with sensors?
>> It’s you know, it for me it really is an open question. Can we get to the kind of closure that a lot of people naturally crave um through through the use of of instruments alone or might we have to resort to means that go outside of just instrumented science? I mean, I I’m I’m much more comfortable talking about instrumented measurements, particularly those that that we put in place and allow to data log. And you know, I’m very comfortable with an approach that allows the you know, the data to self-assemble into a coherent story.
Um My hope is uh that the answer to your question is yes. My hope is that with you know, sufficient uh time and sufficient distribution of instruments across the property of sufficient sensitivity we’ll get the kinds of clues that that not just our team, but anyone consonant about the subject will find satisfying.
Um but I but I I often I often say, look, let’s not crave closure more than we crave the truth.
Now, there is a test of patience of patience a foot here.
>> Yeah. Uh Thomas Winterton, you know, the the last time you were here on this program, we talked about your physical injuries as a result of being associated with the ranch, and they’re really they’re real and they’re serious. Since we talked that time, these sensationalized reports have come out all over the world about uh the secret report uh documenting the physical effects of close encounters, a report that was written for BAASS and AASSAP 10 years ago, and has now just been discovered and and blown way out of proportion and mis- misassigned to a different program that it was not associated with, but that reinforced the idea that there are consequences, very real-life consequences for people that get too close that in a in essence fly too close to the sun.
As a result of your own experiences and reading about this study, this report that was done, uh any consideration to I’m going to have to walk away from this. Uh you know, you or your colleagues, this is too dangerous, it’s dangerous for you and maybe your family.
I’ve had enough.
>> If I thought that leaving the ranch uh would mean the ranch would leave me, I would seriously consider it.
The the data shows though, and the experience of the individuals that have been on the ranch and worked here that leave and disassociate completely uh and continue to have this, leaves me with little faith that me leaving the ranch would do anything to alleviate my concerns at home and and and to those that I care about. And so, I am of the opinion that uh you know, if if leaving the ranch is not going to fix the problem, then I want to be in the middle of trying to find what is. You know, I can’t think if right now, I mean, it’s frustrating to have something happen at home, but at least I’m surrounded with such a great team where I can come back and and share what’s going on and we can look at it objectively and and try to figure it out. I can’t imagine having these things continue to happen to me and not have that access or or the ability to sit down with these guys and and and share.
So, quite honestly, I’m in the middle of it and I don’t I mean, I have joke that’s like joining the mafia. There’s only one way out.
>> [laughter] >> Caleb, you know, you’re a big tough guy, you’re a lawman, military experience, you you have weapons at your disposal, you you’ve been out there to confront whatever it is that’s going on at the ranch. You’re you’re close to Travis Taylor who I finally got to meet him and and talk to him a bit. He’s had personal consequences. He’s had things that were real. And for a guy like him who was He was the arch skeptic, I think, of Brandon’s team coming into this thing.
This can’t be real. I don’t believe it.
And now he’s he’s very much changed. His viewpoint is very much changed. So, could you address sort of the general feeling that you and and he and the team members have about the risks involved and whether or not the risks are too great for what you’re probably able to accomplish?
>> You know, it’s a conversation that we have all the time and there have been days where we’ve all kind of felt like we never we just want to leave and never come back, but with the risks, it’s it’s kind of the we also, I think most of us take the take the stance of we’re kind of explorers and we’re going out and nothing would ever get done if you didn’t take any risk and for me, it’s I guess it’s kind of the the challenge and I’m not going to back down from it and at the end of the day it’s it is Brandon’s ranch and if he feels that it’s too dangerous for us out here that’s I think that’s his call but we all kind of accept those risks. I’ve been in multiple jobs now that I’m one shift away from not going home and >> Right.
>> I accept that fact and it’s >> We’ll have to take a break here. I’m sorry to interrupt you Caleb. We’ll come back. We’ll open up the phone lines.
We’ve got the team from Skinwalker Ranch speaking to us live from the command center at the ranch. First time this has been done I think first time there’s been a live interview from there and we’ve got Brandon Fugal and Eric Bard, Thomas, Caleb, Chris Lee. We’re asking them anything that you might have on your mind, any kind of ideas you might suggest, how can the public can help with this investigation and solve the crack the mystery of the ranch if that’s possible. We’ll go to the phone lines here in just a moment on Coast to Coast AM.
All right, here we are a unique opportunity for you to speak directly to the crew from Skinwalker Ranch. We’re going east of the Rockies. John in Columbia, South Carolina. Hi John, you’re on the air with the Skinwalker team.
>> Hello. I um this this question is for the whole team.
I realize that everything can’t be visually recorded but has there been anything tangible that happened maybe even visually that wasn’t recorded that you can tell us about and I realize you can’t reveal anything that you talk about on the season 3 but I just wondered if there was anything you guys had seen or felt that was more tangible and if the couple that’s living there has told you about anything like that.
>> You bet, good question. This is Brandon.
I’d say the most powerful answer I can give you is that 6 months after acquiring the property before we’d fully instrumented the property in a dynamic way, I had my own compelling life-changing UFO sighting above the Mesa Plateau that occurred right in front of us in broad daylight. It was a 40-to-50-foot long craft. There were multiple witnesses at my side who had both professed their skepticism earlier in the day and lack of belief or even interest in these topics that were there as attending security for a visiting dignitary.
During that same period of time, there were extreme electromagnetic anomalies.
Our cell phones were all drained from 80 90% to zero. And we even witnessed one of the security being rendered catatonic and later hospitalized.
But, wish we had all of that on camera. That was early. That was back in October of 2016, but it was very real, witnessed, and a compelling part of the historical record that I wish we had more substantive data to back up, but there you have it.
>> Randall, along those same lines, you’ve got cameras running all the time. You can’t possibly put all this footage into the program, even though it’s an hour show each week.
What happens to all that material?
>> Good question. I mean, I think a lot of people screaming for data all the time have no idea what they’re asking for. We have over 40 surveillance cameras in addition to other scientific platforms constantly monitoring everything going on. We have terabytes of data being collected every every week and coming in from all of these platforms and being able to separate the signal from the noise and and being able to properly analyze it and and bringing the right experts to bear, that’s that’s a daunting process. We’re doing our best with our team, but it’s it’s it’s not easy.
>> Uh Eric, as a follow-up to John’s question there, he’s asking about things that happened that the cameras don’t capture.
I mean, you have a lot of things that I mean, that goes back to the Bigelow days, NIDS, where they would set up cameras and in areas where things had happened multiple times and then the next event takes place just outside the range of the cameras as if someone playing a mind game. And then you also have a bunch of events where something is happening, but it’s invisible, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah, you know, we’ve joked about it being comparable to a game of Whac-A-Mole.
Um you know, you’ve you’ve got something that seems to happen with not quite with predictability, but but at least with enough frequency that there’s a hope that you’ll catch it in a given circumstance or location, and you you do your very best to catch it there, and you find that it it it disappears, um evades detection, and reemerges somewhere else.
Um you know, I’d like to follow up on something that that that Brandon was talking about, if I may.
>> Sure.
>> Um you know, we’re talking about these terabytes of data. I’m looking up at uh at our at the the records on our VMS, the video management system. This is a machine vision system that’s taking in all those all those camera feeds.
And I see 26,898 video clips cued up to be reviewed by the guy talking to you right now.
It is a daunting task, and out of those approximately 27,000 video clips, we’ll be fortunate to have even one that has any real evidentiary value or any relevance to to narrative. So, maybe that helps calibrate expectations or help people get a feel for what this work is like.
>> I should also point out that you go through this video. So, you’ll have an episode, there’s an event, you you see something strange right after the event happens, but then you later go back through the video and sometimes we’ll see things that the team did not see at the time of the incident.
But there it is on video, right?
>> Absolutely. You know, that’s that’s the wonderful thing about, you know, doing this work in the time frame that we’re doing it now versus during the earlier era with NIDS and BAS, you know, we we benefit from the fact that the technology has evolved. Whereas instead of taking effectively time lapse video data, we’re getting, you know, your standard 30 frames per second or so of both video and audio at a much better definition.
And so of course we see features emerging whenever we come back and and examine it just, you know, on the screen or perhaps after doing some uh post processing, you know, some some image processing. You know, I I I get a chance to to uh to do some of that with the computer to bring out details.
>> Uh we know for a fact that the government is monitoring and tracking our investigation.
You’ll see you’ll see some interesting things future in the media future that will try to address that. We we were summoned to Washington D.C. to give testimony uh relative to the reality and to present documentary evidence uh associated with our investigation uh as far as engaging the the tribal leaders and both youth and Navajo uh advisors we’ve we’ve had uh on numerous occasions uh respected individuals on the ranch even on camera interacting with the team and providing guidance and perspective that we continue to treasure and and apply. And we’re we’re sensitive to the the cultural aspects associated with our stewardship of this very intriguing property.
>> Uh just to clarify Jason’s question, you the government is interested certainly and has been for a long time different agencies, but you’re not directly involved or taking funding from the government as part as the A A S A P bass operation, right?
>> No, hell no. No.
>> In fact, you haven’t taken any money from the TV show is my understanding.
>> No. Yeah, not a first penny personally in my pocket.
Uh all of this has been in service to to to expanding the investigation and there really hasn’t been a profit motive associated with this effort. This is truly uh been a labor of love and and somewhat philanthropic and discovery centered in nature. But we’re definitely not part of some government program and we don’t believe that what we’re seeing based on the advanced physics at work and technology that that has to be deployed in order to to create the phenomena that we are documenting, it just seems to defy any conventional prosaic explanation.
>> Uh Thomas, uh you and Kaelo of course live in the community. You’ve been there a long time. I’m sure you still interact with uh the Utes uh and and the larger community as well.
What’s it like for you now that you’re a known commodity, you’re on television in the community in general? They pepper you with questions about what’s going on at the ranch and what’s it like interacting with the Utes? Are they You know, it’s it’s a it’s tricky ground sometimes. The the tribe I know in the past it it is sometimes hard to break through and get them to trust you enough to where they will talk to you.
>> Yeah, it’s been interesting.
Fortunately, you know, we have Jim Morris who has a great love for the for the Native Americans has spent his life you know, raising tens of millions of dollars for Native American scholarships.
And so he’s been a great liaison here growing up here.
It’s vitally important to us that we have good relations with with the tribe.
You know, I I find myself in a little bit of a I have to walk a really tight rope. My my father is involved in politics and so I have to be careful you know, what I say and how I represent myself on the ranch. And I have to admit I was very nervous when the show began airing how it would be perceived among the the tribe. In in in our talks with them, you know, half of them half of them say, “Well, we don’t you know, we don’t believe in that.” And and the other half are so superstitious that when they drive by on the main highway, they’ll look the other way and not even acknowledge that the ranch exists. So you you get a mix kind of of the believers but um we value our relationship with them and and it’s been fun because as I go through the community some of the biggest supporters of the show have been tribal members. And so I’ll be at the grocery store and and I know that I was there one day and and a 74-year-old tribal member lady she said, “Oh, I’m a huge fan of your show.
We we watch it as a family. We love it.” So we’ve had we’ve had good response from them.
>> Caleb, uh question for you. What it’s like uh interacting with folks in the community about the show?
>> Uh it’s been overwhelmingly positive and with being law enforcement, I’ve actually been able to be in the unique position to get to know and work with BIA officers who are generally there to help us with tribal issues and we have jurisdictional things we have to worry about, but um I with my relationship with some of these other officers uh I’ve actually been approached by officers both native and um white that and they open up to me and they tell me their experiences and they uh so I’ve been really blessed with having these conversations that I don’t think anybody else would really hear because uh as law enforcement our word is our job and we have to account for that and me being on the show and being a part of this investigation, I think that’s given a lot of confidence to guys who have responded to calls and have seen things themselves or have responded and tried to help people and who have were experiencing things and cuz they’re calling us for an answer and and if we can’t give it to them, you know, that’s a blow to that person’s confidence and so it’s it’s overwhelmingly positive in in the fact that a lot of people are approach us and tell us things in confidence and having other officers do that and emergency personnel, our EMTs, our firefighters it’s been a really cool experience.
>> Well, we know for a fact through our own experience that former military and scientists that have served on this property have refused to ever set foot on it again.
>> Yeah.
>> are terrified.
>> Yep.
>> That’s a fact. Members of our team have been terrorized, have had their own experiences with what many people refer to as the hitchhiker effect.
It’s real.
>> DIA program was canceled because there there was some fear that it was a demonic entity and they didn’t want to mess with it. But you guys Brandon, you want to take a shot at that?
>> Yeah, I mean we’re definitely seeing that there is a trickster aspect to the phenomenon.
Uh >> Welcome back. Erica Luke’s passion for UFOs dates back to her childhood. Uh she had a series of personal sightings in 2013 that led her to join MUFON. She became the Utah State Director for MUFON, was an associate producer of the MUFON communications team, uh was their volunteer of the year 2 years running in ’14 and ’15 and now serves as communications director for the International Association of UAP researchers. She has investigated uh Skinwalker Ranch and the surrounding areas for years and developed her own sources as as I mentioned a couple of minutes ago and she hosts a program called UFO Classified on KCOR. Welcome to the program, amazingly, for the first time, Erica Luke’s. Hi Erica.
>> It is so fantastic to be here with you tonight. Thank you for having me.
>> So let’s start with a little bit about your background. You You You were interested as a child but you didn’t see anything until just a few years ago.
Is that all right?
>> that that is exactly right. I mean, I always had a fascination for the unknown and I remember being in in the school library back in grade school and picking up a book on UFOs and something just struck me and it was from that moment forward that I began to look into Bigfoot, into alien abductions, into ghosts, and and the paranormal. And I was raised by a mother who was incredibly She’s an incredibly brilliant woman, but she raised me to have an open mind and but to be critical in my thinking and to always ask questions.
And so, in my my 20s, I lived in a very haunted house that was documented and was actually in the media. And it was an interesting thing. And then from there, I had the series of sightings that you were referring to in 2013.
And that was pretty mind-blowing for me most of all because I live 80 miles away from Dugway Proving Ground. And I live when I was viewing these objects, as many others did in the Utah Valley, Salt Lake Valley, they were in the flight corridor for the international airport.
So, to me, it was not only seeing this, but why are they in airspace? What you know, why are they so close to this top-secret military installation? There were so many questions, and I wanted to know the answers. So, that set me on my path.
>> What is the International Association for UAP researchers?
>> So, this is a new organization, and we really feel that this is going to be quite groundbreaking. Ted Roe, who is the executive director of NARCAP, another incredibly important organization that studies uh aviation safety with regard to UAP sightings, he has started a new organization to really address the scientific and and academic community. And we will be working with people from all over the world, and we’ll have a peer-reviewed journal, and an active international college of experts and we will work with other organizations like UFO data to help them, you know, obtain funding and do promote research because truly we’re we are I believe seeing the end of ufology and it’s imperative that we engage this subject in a different manner and we have to be much more aggressive in our approach and I believe we are going to do this.
>> The end of ufology meaning as a standalone entity or subject meaning it other disciplines have to be part of the the study.
>> You know what I I believe that ufology unfortunately is is become kind of a a cottage industry and we’re not really addressing the issues.
We are looking for the Holy Grail and I think we see this a lot especially in the United States with organizations.
We’re waiting for that one case, you know, where the alien lands on the White House lawn and as a result of that we’re missing key elements. We’re not analyzing the data. We’re not putting together the bigger picture because there is a bigger picture here. We’re not progressive in our approach and we’re not viewing this as a tactical problem and we spend an awful lot of time as you know, arguing about whether the fact this is really happening. Well, we know it is. We know that we’re experiencing something that is truly anomalous and we need to move forward and take take a progressive approach and really engage this topic.
>> You know, I know in the time that I’ve been involved in the topic it’s it’s changed so much, you know, the the nuts and bolts saucer stuff which is sort of the prevailing paradigm when I started has changed and it’s changed in part exactly what you’re saying is that the stodgy approach to I I want to study flying saucers coming here from other planets does not work.
It doesn’t explain the mystery, it doesn’t explain associated mysteries which is sort of how uh how the study of the Skinwalker Ranch kind of changed my world view on everything. And maybe that’s what attracted you to it as well.
>> You know, I think so and I think it it it’s been an interesting process, especially with me to be involved with MUFON and to see there there are lots of people that come into this and we all do we’re all guilty of this coming into this with bias. And if we’re going to to truly study this, we need to set our bias aside and we need to to really look at this from a different perspective. I mean, we we can’t if there is an intelligence interacting with us, which we know that there is, why would they leave trace evidence? Why you know, there’s so many questions that I ask myself and many others every day.
I mean, we we need to stop looking for specific things and we need to look at what we have and then we need to obtain funding and we need to do good field research studies. That’s that’s where we need to go.
>> You know, when you started focusing some of your attention and investigations on the Uinta Basin?
>> When well, I mean, since I I am in Utah and I mean I that is and becoming Utah state director, that was when I began to really grab a hold of what was taking place in the Uinta Basin and in Salt Lake City area specifically, you know, you’ve got the Dugway Hill Air Force Base. You have all of these different things here and and Utah is truly one of those places where there is a lot of strange activity.
And a lot of the times, except for Skinwalker, thanks to you and Colm Kelleher, but a lot of times what happens here goes unnoticed. And so when I took over as Utah State Director, there was the MUFON chapter was pretty much null and void because Elaine Douglas had left MUFON with a bang, and that the chapter she passed away, but the chapter was in disarray, so I I I built I really worked hard at getting this chapter established and getting getting people comfortable, and so they would, you know, give me sightings reports, and I established connections all over Utah to do this, and did a lot of really great work with my my team. We did It’s been an amazing process, the whole thing.
>> So, you’ve been there. Have you you’ve personally been to the basin? I know you have sources and and people on the ground. Yes?
>> Yes.
>> Um and uh have you tried to go on the ranch?
>> You know, we were on the periphery of the ranch, and I know that it was uh and I I’ve talked to you before, and you’ve always been so gracious to talk to me, and you had mentioned how disrespectful people are and for private property, which is absolutely shocking to me, and so we just observed that, and we were there with some people that I was working with, and I still work with. In fact, I talked to them today.
>> Erica Luke, can you give me sort of a a broad overview, broad strokes about the kinds of uh paranormal or un- unknown phenomena that you have identified or investigated uh in connection with the Uinta Basin?
>> So, in the Uinta Basin, there are I mean, we’ve got a it’s a menagerie of all sorts of things. So, you’ve got typically the balls of light that are seen uh above ground, above the ridge tops. You see structured craft, creatures, disincarnate voices.
You hear reports of machinery underground. So, there is I it paranormal activity. So, you’ve got people that are in in homes that are having things that are mysteriously misplaced and then in another location, they’re experiencing strange occurrences with their electronics and things. So, it is but it truly is uh it just you’ve got everything in one place and it’s not just specific to Skinwalker Ranch. This has truly been taking place throughout the Uinta Basin for 50 plus years.
>> And and what do you think it is? Is there something about that location? I mean, I’m sure you have some theories.
Uh proving it’s one thing but what do you think it is about that place or is it like that everywhere if you look hard enough?
>> I I think that that is a great question and I think what I’m trying to do and and many others are trying to do, we’re trying to find commonalities. So, what makes this location similar to the Brown Mountain location or places like Min Min or Hessdalen, Norway? I mean, there are places that you see all over the world or Yakima is another great example and you mentioned that in Hunt for the Skinwalker where you see all types of phenomena in in one place. So, when you’re looking at that, you have to ask yourself, you have to look at you know, what do we have here? Do we have specific mineral or rare earth content?
Are there gravitational anomalies? What is it Is there a Native American reservation? Is there a military installation? And it’s very interesting when you start kind of putting the pieces together and making the connections. And that’s when I was working with MUFON, I started a project called Project Orange and we were specifically going through data and finding sightings clusters and then identifying the commonalities. And so, it it it’s curious but I truly believe we can find things and I think the Uinta Basin is a as a great example for this because there are so many uh you know, we’ve got a lot of energy resources up there. We’ve got a lot of mines. We’ve got a lot of the Native American reservations. We’ve got some military. It’s It’s everything. And so when you just break that down, we’ve just got to kind of peel back the layers and see why this location is unique and why are there other locations all over the world that are hosting the same types of phenomenon.
>> You know, when I’ve I’ve made public presentations a few times over the years about the the the ranch and the Basin and we’ll tell people about the range of different weird stuff that happens and they some of them will just kind of roll their eyes. How can that be? It doesn’t make any sense. Why would it be in in that area? And yet uh you know it’s hard to find somebody in that Basin who lives there who hasn’t had a an experience or a sighting or somebody in their family has had a sighting. And I don’t know if you’ve had the same experience on the ground there or not, but that’s been mine.
>> You know, I it is absolutely. I mean, people there that it is a common thing for them. In fact, one of the witnesses that I work with and I was mentioning earlier I was talking to today. He’s lived there his whole life as has his family and they I mean, it it’s one of those things, you know, you’re you’re out there, you see it and you don’t necessarily talk about it.
It’s just you you kind of turn the way and I think that’s how a lot of the cattle ranchers are in that area because nobody knows what to do with this. I mean, who do you who do you talk to? Where do you go for help?
>> Yeah, you you worry about ridicule. Uh you’re not out there as a UFO investigator. You’re raising cattle. So, you’re not carrying your your uh investigative tools. You don’t have a video camera with you necessarily to document it. That’s not what your primary function is. You mentioned this this general three-generation cattle rancher. Uh can you tell us a little bit more about uh what they’ve seen over the years?
>> So, we I have a a couple different uh multi-generational people that I’ve been working with families. Um we one specific person that has has is a cattle rancher has lost a lot of livestock and including when he was younger a family pet due to the the strange mutilations.
And then you’ve got the anomalous light phenomena that is often times seen, very similar to the Skinwalker area. In fact, his property is close to Skinwalker. And so, it’s the same types of things. And they’re very uh very reserved people. And again, this this is so out of their box and they don’t know who to talk to about it. They don’t really want to bring attention to this.
Specifically, because if you’re if you know, you’ve got a a cattle and you’re losing livestock, what are the insur- what is the insurance company going to say? You’re losing a lot of money.
>> I I know that they the rancher, we called him Tom Gorman, his name has been publicized by other people. Uh the rancher at the the ranch in particular that we’re talking about at the time, he he at first thought it might be the government trying to chase him off his property.
And there was in fact some government interest both then and now. Uh and but I don’t think it was the government that’s responsible for this array of stuff that’s been going on because it’s been going on for decades. You know, it’s not some recent phenomena.
Um the idea that there might be underground bases or the underground machinery. Uh so, you’ve heard that from multiple people.
>> Yes. Yes, and it it’s not just in this location. I mean, we’ve heard this back in Missouri where you have a lot of, you know, the Marley Woods. You’ve got a lot of different places back there that have repeated occurrences of the same types of phenomena. And so, it is a very common thing.
And now, for me, it is my job to try to get different researchers together and to pool the data and to make the connections. But, as you know, it’s it’s incredibly difficult because people don’t want to come forward with that.
They’re reticent. But, they just they don’t feel comfortable. They don’t know what will happen. And it’s very vital that we create a cohesive community with >> you have people that will call you if there’s a a mutilation, for example? And And how And can you say how recently there have been any mutilations in the in the basin?
>> You know, unfortunately, I don’t get a lot of calls with mutilations. And I think that it is probably few and far between when somebody would really reach out to somebody. I mean, you get I have a a great case report, but that was back in in 2014 from the Daggett County Sheriff’s Department when there were mutilations on a property. And And interestingly enough with this case, there were there was a massive UFO sighting uh over Salt Lake Valley and then over in Colorado. But, it it’s hard. It’s hard to establish rapport with people. It’s hard to gain their trust. And it’s hard to get there.
And as you know, when you you’re dealing with cattle mutilations, you need to be on the scene within hours to really get in there.
>> Um the ranchers who have experienced this, have seen the flying orbs or other kinds of craft or have had a mutilation, do they have theories about it? Do they share with you what they think it is?
>> You know, they they they they don’t. It is so completely out of their paradigm.
I I don’t think they know what to think about it. It’s It’s just like when you were dealing with the Shermans, uh they they don’t they don’t know how to deal with this, but they know it is nothing that can be explained and it’s frightening to people.
And so, how do you it is such a hard thing. How do you help these people? How do you create a supportive community? I don’t know. I mean, you you’ve been doing this for so long and you’ve seen the heartache that has taken place in that area and the loss of of money due to the the mutilations and it’s just a very it’s a tragic thing and I truly hope that we can we can figure this out and create a support system.
>> Do you have any uh creature sightings?
>> We do have creature sightings. Yes, we do. In fact, that’s a that’s always a a complete trip up there. We have sightings of 8-ft tall creatures with the glowing red eyes, typical kind of skin walker uh sightings reports. You get Bigfoot creatures that that are seen in the area. So, it’s it’s the same type of thing. We also have reports. I talked to Ryan Burns who lives up near there and and you will get animals you’ll see animals that have test tubes hanging off of them as they’re walking through properties. So, you get all sorts of things and then you get the wolf sightings. It it truly is it’s mind-blowing as you know.
>> Um have you made any inroads with the tribe? I it was a tough nut to crack for the NIDS guys. I know it try trying to get the tribe to open up and talk about things that they have seen. Um you know, that’s where the we got the name for the Skinwalker Ridge and I just didn’t know if you had had any luck that we didn’t.
>> You know what? I keep working on that and I’ve made a few inroads and like you say that’s a very uh it’s a tough thing to do and I don’t blame anybody for being reticent to talk about this because who would there’s so many people in this field that don’t take it seriously and don’t hold people’s anonymity with regard to to the witness accounts. You know, we need to take this very seriously. And when you’re dealing with people’s beliefs and and their heritage, it it’s it’s a very different thing.
But I have Every day I’m making connections and I’m acquiring case reports of of skinwalker sightings and talking to I’m very fortunate to know the one of the foremost Native American historians in the world.
And so I’ve been meeting with him and learning about all of all of the Native American lore. And it’s been a truly amazing process for me.
>> You mentioned about Ryan Burns. There’s also a guy named Ryan Skinner and then Ryan Layton. At least three Ryans I know of who’ve been on the ground investigating strange activity there and and really have uh have devoted a lot of time to it and are pretty serious. You also have weekend warriors who come in and um you know, they’ll they’ll go up to the ranch sometimes. They’ll they’ll trespass on the property and they I think they make up stuff. They It’s like a Rorschach test or something. They see what they want to see or they just make it up and then suddenly they they’re online and they become weekend experts on the whole thing and and I think the locals um I think they resent it, you know. I think uh >> I don’t blame them.
>> Um In in terms of are you able Do you have a network of other researchers who are there on the ground who will call you up if something weird happens?
>> Yes, absolutely. I mean, and that has been a hard thing. I’ve I’ve established networks of people all over the world, but I will tell you in this area it has been incredibly difficult. But Dave Rosenfeld, uh Ryan Burns, they have been incredible. I have a a family that I’ve been working with and they will give me reports and then we’ll do some investigations but and I’m also reaching out to law enforcement and different witnesses and it’s just a you just have to to get people comfortable and you have to to assure people that you’re not there to uh you know, to exploit what’s happening there. This is sensitive and I also think you you’ve brought up so many times the great points of these weekend warriors that come in there and they they truly don’t understand what they’re dealing with and that it they in a lot of cases what takes place up there isn’t good. And unless you have it together, you you truly shouldn’t be going up there and messing around with what’s taking place.
>> Have you heard any stories about the phenomena following people, attaching itself?
>> That is always a common concern and it does. I think that if you are a person that is has a weak constitution that isn’t necessarily and I hate to even go there but you have to be a strong and a good person because you don’t know what you’re dealing with and when you come into contact with some of these negative energies, a lot of times they can and they will attach themselves to you and I think that’s very common in the paranormal realm and it can cause a lot of problems in your life.
So, when I had sightings reports when I was MUFON state director and we knew that there was something pretty malevolent taking place, I was I was very hesitant to send in my team because I wasn’t sure if they would be truly prepared for what they would encounter and that that’s something you have to look at when you’re going into places like this.
>> Malevolent how? What do you What was the What were the indications that whatever it was was I I mean I you know I I’ve been there a lot of times and and I think it’s benign at best or indifferent at best, but it can be pretty mean.
Um and some people really get messed up by the experience.
>> And that And that’s the thing. I mean you you hear different sides to the story and and um some people will say that they feel almost comforted by what’s there like it’s keeping a watch over them, but then you get reports from we had a a case that was submitted to us and it was a this person that was so terrified. I mean he had stockpiled arms and had many guard dogs around him and I don’t know if I mean he was obviously terrorized, but I don’t know if this is You also have to look at the the individual and what’s going on in their lives at the time. Is there something negative that’s taking place in their environment that’s causing a negative energy or entity to come into their space. I mean there’s so many different ways to approach this and you have to step back and and my main priority is to keep the people that I’m I’m with safe and I think we truly don’t know what’s taking place and you saw that probably a lot on the ranch and and dealing with the experiences of Colm and and others at the you know at at Skinwalker.
>> Uh Junior Hicks is the name of uh somebody one of the first people I met there when the NIDS guys were on the property. He’s uh it’s anybody who lives in the basin would know Junior Hicks. He was a science teacher. So uh and he got to know generations of kids and as they grew up when they would see strange stuff they’d tell him about it and he and he’s accumulated thousands and thousands of cases. I think 400 or so of his best cases became the book The Utah UFO Display and and he was very helpful to us in the early going.
Have you worked with Junior Hicks?
>> I have never had the pleasure of meeting him and I’ve been trying to do that because he is such a valuable resource.
I did have the pleasure of speaking with Frank Salisbury on different occasions and I’m I’m sad that he has passed. But what a brilliant man and he was for people that don’t know who Dr.
Frank Salisbury was, he was the head of the Department of Plant Physiology for Utah State University and he was also a leading scientist who worked with the Atomic Energy Commission and he was also a devout Mormon.
And for him to to go into this and to research this, it really pushed his boundaries with regards to religion and his his place in all of this, our place in all of this.
But he did absolutely feel that there was an intelligence that perhaps could be from outer space, but it was in this isolated region of Utah and he felt that there was a base for UFOs and they were putting on a show and that’s where the name the Utah UFO display came from. And his book is is tremendous resource.
>> Yeah, we actually we did not have access to it until after the Skinwalker book came out, but I I guess after he read our account, his his book focused on UFOs as flying saucers from other planets and then he he sort of
